17 Responses

  1. Kelly Richardson
    Kelly Richardson at |

    I learn so much from you, thank you!!

    Reply
  2. Z. Allora
    Z. Allora at |

    Awesome & thoughtful! Thank you for sharing this with us. Many hugs, Z.

    Reply
    1. Kaje
      Kaje at |

      <3 Thanks

      Reply
  3. Denise Dechene
    Denise Dechene at |

    As always a thoughtful blog I have learned so much from you. And love your books.

    Reply
    1. Kaje
      Kaje at |

      Thanks Denise – I learn a lot from all the articles you find for us too.

      Reply
  4. Eden Winters
    Eden Winters at |

    Well said!

    Reply
    1. Kaje
      Kaje at |

      <3 Eden

      Reply
  5. Mara Townsend
    Mara Townsend at |

    I love this, Kaje! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, they’re brilliant as ever! I really love the look at non-penetrative sex representation!

    Reply
    1. Kaje
      Kaje at |

      I like seeing fiction represent real life. We still urgently need more books in M/M as well, where penetrative sex isn’t the endpoint that means the couple’s sex life is complete, where it may never happen and there’s still an HEA. At least we have some, and many where it doesn’t have to happen every encounter to be satisfying. Hopefully some M/F romance is moving that way too – I just haven’t seen much evidence of it yet.

      Reply
  6. Kathleen
    Kathleen at |

    Beautifully said. Hoorah!

    Reply
    1. Kaje
      Kaje at |

      <3 Thank you.

      Reply
  7. Milica
    Milica at |

    I read every subgenre of MF romance there is, and I can tell you that healthier attitude toward sex – inclusion of escorts in romance without shaming, women with active sex life before meeting the hero, anal, toys, lube, non-penetrative sex (basically everything that you mentioned) is present throughout the MF genre for a while now…long before JR Ward wrote Lover at Last, when MM genre really started getting traction.

    And about that faking orgasm thing…You imply that all MM writers know how to get fictional character off, and that the sex is valid because we can see the product of it. Lol, no…There are some really bad erotic scene writers here. The fact that MC ejaculated, doesn’t validate the act that led to it.

    I get what you’re trying to say, but MM genre has a loooooong way to go, and giving it credit when it’s not due is not a way to go about it. You talk about healthier attitude toward sex, but this whole article is really about double standards women have toward heroine in MF and heroes in MM, i.e you are turning something negative into something positive. As I said, long way to go.

    Reply
    1. Kaje
      Kaje at |

      Oh I agree. Absolutely the sex in M/M is far, far from always realistic. What I am saying is that for women, the sex in M/M is potentially more believably erotic and mutual, because there is the perception that orgasm has provably happened for both characters, and that each can be confident they got the other off. In fact, of course, not only can the scene be written badly or unbelievably, but ejaculation doesn’t always equate with pleasure (since you can even get a male to ejaculate via electric stimulation to the prostate.)

      But if you look at real life M/F sex from the female point of view, there is a lot of it happening that is neither focused on nor successful at eliciting female orgasm. Studies suggest 60-75% of women can’t reliably orgasm from simple vaginal penetrative sex without additional stimulation. And yet, the vast majority of popular M/F romance (and I’m glad if you are reading exceptions to that) have the vast majority of sex scenes as vaginal penetration without a big effort at additional stimulation for the woman, (maybe ten seconds of manual stimulation) and yet she climaxes.

      So when women read M/M versus M/F, at least from the lens of a het female perspective, M/M is far more focused on sex that would have a good chance of successfully getting orgasm from both participants. And the act of ejaculation serves as a marker of that success. Women are all familiar with faking orgasm to end a sexual encounter that isn’t going well. So, at least from my perspective, reading traditional M/F sex scenes makes me skeptical, even beyond the level of gloss that any sex in books always has over sex in real life.

      And Lover at Last was not the moment that M/M began getting traction, although it definitely helped increase audience. It was written in 2013, at a time when the M/M Romance group on Goodreads already had over 10,000 members and was already one of the top ten groups on there. You might point at Suzanne Brockmann’s “Hot Target” in 2004 as the first big (NY Times Bestseller) boost to the genre, although it had already been gaining some traction before then. “Brokeback Mountain” in 2005 (the movie) was another big boost to the genre. There was strong momentum long before Ward got her book out.

      M/M definitely benefits from the double standard, though. And that’s one thing I am trying to point out. But additionally, I believe it moves beyond it to a degree. Because there is less M/F romance (as opposed to erotica) where the male lead is a sex worker or porn star, and where things like getting an STD/HIV test is a non-blameworthy part of the relationship process. The men in M/F benefit from their position in the gender disparity, but not to the degree of openness and acceptance that we see in M/M romance.

      But you’re absolutely right we have a long way to go in M/M, not just in erasing the double standard. I can still count on my fingers the number of M/M books I’ve read where the guys like sex, but are never going to have penetrative sex. And similar numbers for books with asexual MCs, although we’re making big strides there lately.

      If you have suggestions for M/F romance (not just erotica) where there is no sex-shaming, particularly of a female sex worker allowed to have a romantic HEA, and where female pleasure is well represented I’d love to have those suggestions. I’ve been reading a sampling of the genre bestsellers and not finding much of it. We should be supporting the romance books that get that right.

      Reply
  8. 16forward
    16forward at |

    …and back all the way To Pretty Woman…

    Reply
    1. Kaje
      Kaje at |

      I don’t remember the movie well enough to recall if Vivian is allowed to be unashamed of chosing sex work or if it has the Cinderella component where love will rescue her from an undesirable fate as an escort. At least I do remember her holding her head up better than many.

      Reply
  9. Gay M/M News for May 2019 - Clare Solomon

    […] Author, Kaje Harper, has an interesting and thought-provoking article about attitudes to sex in novels: Sex Positivity and M/M here. […]

Please take a minute to leave a comment it is so appreciated !