62 Responses

  1. Nick Thiwerspoon
    Nick Thiwerspoon at |
    Reply
  2. Lorraine Lesar
    Lorraine Lesar at |

    Good for you! I love reading m/m romances and most of my favourite 1 click authors are woman!

    Reply
  3. Elin Gregory
    Elin Gregory at |

    There are some very good points on both the blogs you quote and that you make yourself, Sue.

    I don’t think I’m a typical M/M reader because I absolutely LOVE plot driven stories – Dorien Grey’s Dick Hardesty series, Elliott Mackle’s Captain Harding books – stories where stuff happens, with lots of action and bravery, and romance as just the cherry on the cake. To my mind there aren’t nearly enough of these about, or I’m just not very good at finding them. I hang around the genre sites – Sci Fi, Thrillers, Police Procedurals, Historicals – looking for recommendations and if I find something good I pass the news on. When I buy a book like that I don’t usually consider how the author would describe their sexuality, or gender for that matter. Maybe I ought to worry more about it, but I’ve just been grateful to find excellent reading matter.

    As for my own work, I curl up in horror at the thought of causing deep offence to my readers. I’m just trying to write stuff to entertain – something in the style of Bernard Cornwell or Rafael Sabatini, with lots of action and a bit of a laugh but adding a little bit of manly fondling – and to express the knowledge that there have always been gay men but that their histories have been shamefully erased throughout the past. I hope that’s all right, but I have to accept that try as I might to a male reader my characters will probably never quite ring true.

    Reply
  4. Amanda Young
    Amanda Young at |

    Very well said, Sue.

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  5. Andrea M
    Andrea M at |

    As a reader, I like what I like and don’t care what gender is writing it. I read a great variety of M/M books and like sci-fi, romance, suspense, paranormal – you name it, I like it. My main criteria is the quality of the writing, characters and story. The sex is secondary and I get bored when it goes on and on and on and I don’t care for excessive mushiness.

    My favorite authors are both men and women as long as they write what I like.

    Reply
  6. Patricia Logan
    Patricia Logan at |

    Brilliantly put, my dear. I suppose I never thought about how my MM would be accepted by gay men when I began writing. I simply knew that I got it right, at least from Jake and Cade’s perspective and I didn’t care what anybody else thought. Now, 4 years after having been published, maybe I do care what people think but I still know that I get it right. If gay men like me, well, they LOVE me and my female readers just plain understand what I’m saying. I suppose that’s all I need to know. And you get it, Sue… you do

    Reply
  7. Z.Allora
    Z.Allora at |

    I’m in this genre because I love it. I feel this is my way of promoting equality. Our words have the potential to make fundamental changes in those that read them. I know I’ve impacted people positively with my words and it makes a difference. Each mommy (or daddy) who reads gay romance is more likely to be more accepting and they are raising more accepting people.

    I’m only fascinated this is the difference that is dwelled on… There are lots of things that affect a writer: geography, socio-eco group, education, exposure to travel, world views, etc.

    I also think who forget many of our readers have been dissociated with their sexuality (through trauma, society or being gender queer). Our words allow them to reconnect through gay characters because that’s who some of us relate to… let’s not begrudge someone how they express their own sexuality.

    Hugs, Z.

    Reply
  8. Jason Mitchell
    Jason Mitchell at |

    I hate sexism and have found female authors of the genre to write wonderful stories with excellent character development and a nice build up to the relationship. I own books by many male authors as well and can say that some are lacking the emotional depth that I find most enticing about any romance novel (gay or straight) but that does not mean they are bad books, just different and is to be expected in any genre. I like Sue’s analogy about JK Rowling and Stephen King, very apt since I am a gay man and could not write anything like what I read!

    Reply
  9. F.E.Feeley Jr
    F.E.Feeley Jr at |

    I think this is brilliantly written. It just makes me sort of sad that women have to defend their role in just about anything, whether its a job, equal pay, equal station, etc. It’s really interesting how Victorian we can be still even in this modern age and for women in this genre, you all have really shattered the glass ceiling and sort of changed the tone of the conversation being had. A good friend of mine and soon to be co-author Jamie Fessenden pointed out to me that the gay genre was incredibly depressing and the outlook pretty morbid in gay literature. Women pretty much, gave us a happy ending. That’s where it is. And it echoes in real life as well. Look how many female allies we have in the mundane world and in Hollywood or through music.
    Sometimes its hard to see yourself because of what society says your are a certain thing or your in a certain space. Albert Einstein said that “Everyone is brilliant, but if you criticize a fish, on its inability to climb a tree, it will go its whole life thinking it’s stupid.” And while not exactly the same thing, I think the theme is the same. Gays were accused of so many things, being condemned for so much, that their own outlook sucked. I think it took women to elbow us in the ribs and tell us it was gonna be alright. And it is, it all works out in the end. Thanks Sue.

    Reply
  10. Rider Jacobs
    Rider Jacobs at |

    I will never be able to tell you what it is like to be a gay male or to have sex like one. I was asked once why I write in this area, I said simply that all the hero’s are me. I base them on things I like, bits of my personality are there. Can I tell you what it is like to have sex with a woman? Nope,but I can tell you what it is like to have sex with a man. More and more women are reading this type of genre. Yes women want romance. Now this is just my opinion but I think the women that read the genre tend to gravitate more to the women who write it. There are some male authors I read but I have to admit, I tend to prefer the female written novels because there is more romance in the book. I read one book by a male author and thought that is it, where is the detailed sex, where is the romance, where is the thing that connects me with the hero and this was from a very popular male author. I go to conferences to meet the authors but also to be around other women who like to read the same thing I do, If two men want make out in the corner, I don’t care. The men are there to read and be who they are with out judgement. Women should be given the same chance.

    Reply
  11. Jen
    Jen at |

    Hear, hear Andrea. I feel the same way!

    Just think how boring the world of fiction would be if authors had to stick to the gender, race, orientation, socio-economic status, etc. into which they were born.

    Thanks, Sue, for the great post.

    Reply
  12. Beverley Jansen
    Beverley Jansen at |

    I appreciate you putting your thoughts like this, Sue, it’s a good way to start a debate and allow people to air their grievances and move on. I used to believe that a good book was a good book, whoever wrote it. However, as I’ve gotten older I realise the reason why minority groups sometimes wish to appropriate certain ‘spaces’ or activities for themselves. Years ago I was involved with women’s rights and there was an extreme section of that political world who hated all men because of the oppression of women and spent most of their time belittling men and thinking up gender neutral terms. I could not be involved with that because ALL men were not the problem, societal attitudes were and that included women. Going to extremes is not the way to change attitudes and sadly changing terms isn’t either, acceptance is. There is a good argument as you, Sue, alluded to that you do not have to be what you are writing about but you do owe it to your subject to be accurate. There are fabulous male writers in this genre and fabulous women writers, and there are awful in both male and female, gay or straight, cis or trans etc. So whilst I understand groups wishing to appropriate safe spaces, you cannot rule the imagination and therefore writer’s subjects or genres for their novels.

    Finally, I would say that a community of writers, reader, bloggers and reviewers like the one, which exists around m/m genre writing is a safe, and should be a tolerant place for all and should be celebrated.

    Reply
  13. Marshall Thornton
    Marshall Thornton at |

    Very good post. Couple thoughts… I wish this conversation would become less about gender and more about story structure, character design and genre. What I’ve noticed in my own reading is that the choices writers make which I, as a gay man, find inauthentic or even offensive are just as likely to come from men writing m/m romance as women. If gender is important at all, it is the gender of the readership.

    But, is it even important to be authentic? One of the things I’ve been thinking a lot about is what I’d call Ally Literature. To clearly explain that think of the movie Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner? That’s not a black film. It’s a film made by white people to explain race to white people. I think the same is true of Brokeback Mountain – I know a lot of people view that as a gay film but it was made by straight people to explain homosexuality to straight people. (the gay audience was completely incidental) I enjoyed Brokeback Mountain but if I view it as a “gay” film I begin to ask questions like, “why couldn’t they be more empowered?” “why can’t there ever be a happy ending?” “Why do they act more like straight guys than gay guys?” Questions which a lot of people in the LGBT community asked when the film came out – because it was viewed as a gay film. If I view it as an Ally Film/Ally Literature then the decisions they made make perfect sense and my questions disappear.

    I think at least some of m/m romance could come under the Ally umbrella and then, if characters are somewhat “heterosexualized” or inauthentic it really doesn’t matter as much. It’s really a conversation between straight people. (I’ve even seen comments from readers who say that reading m/m romance has changed their views politically.) I’m not saying all of m/m romance is ally literature, that’s really for individual writers (and readers, of course) to decide.

    “Women have been good for the MM genre.” My understanding is that MM sprang from women writing slash fiction online in the 90s and then that blended with traditional romance tropes and structures. That is distinctly separate from gay fiction which existed for centuries before that. So, yes, women have been good for the MM genre – they invented it. Have they been good for gay fiction? That’s a much more difficult question. I consider myself a gay fiction writer publishing with m/m romance houses which leads me to surmise that m/m is providing opportunity to gay fiction writers. On the other hand, since romance is always the most popular genre wherever it appears the success of m/m makes it difficult to find gay fiction on Amazon – though I think that’s more sheer laziness on Amazon’s part than anything writers are doing. However, using m/m and gay fiction synonymously muddies the water and actually creates conflict.

    Reply
  14. Sarah_Madison
    Sarah_Madison at |

    What a thoughtful and insightful post, Sue! (Isn’t dog-walking great for that sort of brainstorming?) You’ve put into words many of the nebulous ideas I’ve had about the ongoing debate about women in M/M romance–and I love hearing what other people think about it as well–I especially love the quote here from Jamie Fessenden’s quote on how women gave M/M romance its happy ending–that made me smile!

    I can’t help but wonder if some of this ongoing debate doesn’t stem from the gender bias against women in general–certainly traditional M/F romances sell like hot cakes but ‘romance writer’ as applied to women authors is considered (in many circles) to be the epitome of trashy writing.

    My own reasons for writing in this genre are complex and varied, but for the most part, they stem from a lifetime of feeling as though I had to hide who I was, an understanding of what it is like to be ruthlessly bullied, and a desire to express parts of my personality that don’t conform to society’s standards. To be honest, I probably could make more money writing in other genres. I write M/M romance because I *love* it. 😉

    Reply
  15. Ryan Field
    Ryan Field at |

    I write hetero romance sometimes and I’m gay. I enjoy creating straight male and female characters. And I don’t want anyone putting me into a box because I’m gay. So I don’t think gender or sexuality should have anything to do with what writers write.

    Reply
    1. Z.Allora
      Z.Allora at |

      Thank you….
      Hugs, Z.

      Reply
  16. Brandon Shire
    Brandon Shire at |

    This topic again. I won’t go on a rant here, I’ve made my feelings about this immensely clear before. But Sue, you don’t need to defend yourself to anyone. That we, as a reading/writing community, allow this to continue without ramification is absurd. It’s time ot change that.

    Reply
  17. alexakira69
    alexakira69 at |

    wow, this topic always brings such great response. For me, good writing and a well written story is what makes a book good. Sex of the author does not matter, because, and I may be thought of as crazy for voicing this, but to me there is no such thing as straight or gay. Sexuality is a long broad spectrum with many nuances within it.
    You can see it in how each of us has an individual style or way we go about attracting another’s sexual interest. Sure their are society guidelines for how to do this, but when you look deeper each of individual have sexual things that we will do and things that we won’t.
    There are men that I’m attracted to and men that I would never be attracted to. There have been women that I have been attracted to and the sex was great and women that I can’t stand. Do I prefer men? Yes, because my taste is closer to that end of the sexual spectrum.

    When I look at my friends, men that prefer women, women that prefer women, girls who look like boys, boys who look like girls, girls that wish they were men, men that wish they were women and everything inbetween, I have learned sexuality is much broader than straight and gay… to me sexuality is the rainbow.

    So no matter your sex, just keep writing good stories, because there is an audience for every one.

    Reply
  18. Z.Allora
    Z.Allora at |

    I just want to remind folks there’s a Yaoi-style some authors choose to write in. Yaoi was born from Japanese artists drawing beautiful males in stories for other women. Our cover art is usually (but not always) hand drawn and look like a manga letting the reader know the story is pure fantasy. It is usually not trying to be a contemporary gay romance. It’s usually a bit over-the-top.

    I had a number of discussions at the last GRL on fiction vs romance. Each have different ‘rules’/’guidelines’. Writers can break these rules or try to blur the lines and readers will either like it or not. I can only speak for myself if I’m picking up a romance I resent a writer trying to ‘educate’ me on the joys of fiction by labeling a work of fiction as a ‘romance’… because if I wanted a ‘fiction’ novel I would have picked one up. (This is different then stretching boundaries).

    I’m going to try to bury my sadness over how many women writers feel they need to ‘defend’ their presence in this genre and try to move on. One of the reasons I LOVE this community is our inclusiveness…

    Hugs, Z.

    Reply
  19. E.E. Ottoman
    E.E. Ottoman at |

    I don’t agree with the tendency to boil the conversation down to women vs. men in the genre. I think that conversation can and does get sexist very quickly.

    I will say that I’m concerned when I see people stating that how LGBTQ people are represented in romance doesn’t matter because it’s just a fantasy. I think at this point in time there are so few representations of GLBTQ people that every one of them does matter and is important. On top of that I think the tendency to throw up our hands and say “it’s just a fantasy for women who want their HEA. It’s not political or it doesn’t represent real gay men” is a way of avoiding scrutinizing our work.

    I do think straight and cisgender writers who write GLBTQ characters have to do more work to hold themselves accountable in the same way that I, as a white writer, need to do more work when I write about people of color. I would like to see more acknowledgment of that and more work done around it. Checking your privilege is hard, not falling into stereotypes we were all raised with is hard, not making a total racist asshole of myself without even realizing I’m doing it is hard. These are things I struggle with every day as a writer and a human being. I’m sure most other writers do as well but that conversation doesn’t happen as much as it should. If and when issues of how straight writers portray gay characters come up they should be teaching/learning moments not lets point fingers at each other moments. I think we are all falling down on this front.

    “Is the MM community providing a ‘safe space’ and welcoming?”

    I have huge concerns on this front from a selfish personal reason. I write m/m romance among other kinds of romance. I am also a queer, trans person with disabilities. There are definitely part of the m/m romance community where I have felt widely supported and nurtured. I’ve met great allies, great friends, and great fellow queers through writing in this genre.

    Then there are huge swaths of the genre I feel completely aliened from. Just within the last few weeks a very popular m/m author made a number of ablest comments and ablest jokes that her fans and some other authors joined in on. It upset me and when she was asked to stop the whole thing escalated getting more and more offensive until I was practically in tears. It might have just been fun and game for her and her fans but its part of my identity and my life, something I deal with every single day.

    It’s also been really disheartening to see so many people speak out against the inclusion of trans men as characters into m/m romance. Many readers frame this as a personal preference but it’s hard to have people tell you that they don’t want to read books about people like you or while a cisgender man might be sexy a trans man is just not their taste. In a world where trans people are already incredibly marginalized it feels like being marginalized even further.

    I also present myself and identify as fairly effeminately masculine. I have to say I don’t love it when effeminate gay character get called unrealistic, or readers say they prefer ‘real men’, or call these men ‘bitches’ in a deeply derogatory way. I know other effeminate men in the genre have spoken about this issue before.

    I’m not going to speak to race because i have no personal experience there but I would be interested to hear that the experience of readers or writers of color have been.

    I think all this is particularly a problem because the m/m romance genre holds itself up as open, welcoming and accepting of all and prides itself in this. Yet we’re not talking about the ways in which this might not be true.

    Over all there is questions we need to be asking and ways we need to be growing and changing. This whole back and forth over women in the genre isn’t helping us move forward any.

    Reply
  20. Pen Names & Gender: What Romance Readers Want | Sarah Madison Fiction

    […] to die. Today I read a wonderfully thoughtful post on Sid Love’s blog by Sue Brown called Defending My Presence. You should check it […]

  21. Jeff Erno
    Jeff Erno at |

    Sue, thank you for sharing the link of my original blog post. I’d like to state very clearly that I was not suggesting that female authors do not belong in the m/m romance genre. Nor do I think you or any person should have to defend their presence. One need only take a glance at my Good Reads bookshelf to discover that I read and review as many female authors as male. I recommend as many books written by female authors as male. And when I read a book, I don’t judge it based on the gender of the author. And THAT was the point of my original post, “Does Gender Matter?”

    But I do remember a few years back reading an article on one of the gay literary sites (I want to say it was Lambda Literary, but I’m not sure). Anyway, the author of the article categorically dismissed m/m romance, suggesting the entire genre was appropriation of the gay male culture by women. That was the very first time I’d heard that argument, but since then I’ve heard other people, both gay and straight, say the same thing. Obviously, I don’t feel that way myself, but I’m aware that there are many gay men who do feel insulted that women have “taken over” the gay publishing industry.

    Is it wrong to bring this topic up? Isn’t it valid to discuss an opinion that is, if not prevalent, at least regularly-occurring, in the gay community?

    Of course I do not feel that the amazing and talented female authors I’ve come to know and love do not deserve all of the success that they’ve earned. Eden Winters, RJ Scott, Amy Lane, Allison Cassatta, Madison Parker, Sara Alva…the list could go on for pages…these are some of my absolute favorite writers. And without female authors and readers, there would be no m/m romance. The genre itself, I believe, is responsible for saving gay literature from certain death.

    But there is a perception that women write better romance than men do. I could provide a ton of anecdotal evidence of this–comments in reviews, from Good Reads, etc. To me, this is just as unfair to gay male authors as the sexist assumption that men are better at managing businesses or governing countries. And it’s that attitude that really frustrates me. When someone says a gay man does not know how to write a character-driven story because they only write “plot driven” books, I want to scream.

    My original point was that gender does not matter, or at least it shouldn’t. But tell that to the people who seem to gravitate toward only reading books written by one gender.

    Reply
    1. Sue Brown
      Sue Brown at |

      Hi Jeff,

      I think your post and FE Feeley’s raised lots of valid questions, and those discussions have been continued here in the comments and in extensive discussions on Facebook and Twitter. I apologise if it came across that I was attacking your post because I wasn’t. In fact, you’ve extended my thoughts on the subject, especially on appropriation of the genre. The question of diversity (including trans and disabled) characters is being carried on elsewhere.

      I am as frustrated as you by the desire to read one gender. I have come across this in more than one genre. I do not, and never will, understand the need to classify male and female written stories – which is why I get so frustrated by gender classification. Character driven, plot-driven, it’s a style of the author, not the genitals.

      I think, from watching the genre, that some people will never see past the *low* status of romance. I see so many people curl their lip until I discuss some of the issues I cover in my books.

      So, to recap, I agree with you.

      Reply
      1. Andrea M
        Andrea M at |

        Stupid question – what exactly constitutes romance. Every book I’ve read has a relationship somewhere in it but many of them address contemporary issues, are suspense, sci-fi, paranormal, historical, etc. However, it seems like, if they’re M/M, they’re all classified as romance, particularly by some publishers and large online book sellers.

        Reply
        1. Jeff Erno
          Jeff Erno at |

          From a literary standpoint, a romance is something very different than what the publishing industry labels as a romance for marketing purposes. Northrop Frye proposed a theory of literary criticism in which he believed all stories could be placed in one of four categories or mythos: romance, comedy, tragedy, and irony. This definition of romance is a story that includes a hero who faces a quest and must resolve a conflict. It always ends in triumph, where good overcomes evil. Star Wars is a perfect example of this type of romance.

          The “romance” label now used in the publishing industry is a love story which follows a formula where the protagonist falls in love, faces and overcomes obstacles, achieves resolution, and lives happily ever after. Cinderella is an example of this type of romance.

          Bittersweet romances are love stories that do not necessarily have a happy ending.

          Most readers don’t care about these definitions and may not even be aware of the formula that is being followed. But if they’re a fan of formulaic romance and the author veers from this formula, that reader will likely notice and in most cases will not like it. They don’t want to be denied their conflict and resolution or their HEA. And they definitely want the story to include a couple falling in love.

          Reply
          1. Sue Brown
            Sue Brown at |

            Purely from a personal observation, male readers have loved my books that bucked the rules (Nothing Ever Happens and The Night Porter).

          2. Jeff Erno
            Jeff Erno at |

            Sue, here’s a blog I wrote about bucking the rules: http://www.jefferno.com/jeffs_blog/follow-the-rules-

          3. Elin
            Elin at |

            Your list of dos and don’ts in MM romance is very accurate, Jeff, and it almost brings tears to my eyes that they are applied so stringently to any book that features a same sex relationship. Even if the book is written as a romance in the old sense – a bildungsroman where the hero grows through experience and so learns something about the world and himself – these rules are expected to apply. Especially Rule Nine about smut. In fact I think that could be tweaked a little to read “Don’t insult the mm romance audience by trying to sell them touching love stories without it, lots of it, in glorious close up detail.”
            Do you think there will ever be an alternative label to M/M? That is associated so closely to erotic romance that readers are bound to be disappointed if they buy a book and it doesn’t conform to what they expect.

  22. Rocky B
    Rocky B at |

    As a gay man, I love to read m/m romance and I don’t care who writes it as long as it is well written. I love reading Amy Lane as much as Josh Lanyon. I’ve read books by both genders that I felt were unrealistic and just plain crappy. As for women supposedly not being able to write good m/m sex scenes, just check out Ella Frank’s Try. This was here first m/m romance after writing many m/f romances and I have to say that the sex scenes in this book were so scorching & spot on that I thought my iPad was going to melt! Good writing and great imagination are the keys to a successful novel.

    Reply
    1. Sue Brown
      Sue Brown at |

      “Good writing and great imagination are the keys to a successful novel.”
      Amen, Rocky. As it has been since the first book was written.

      Reply
  23. again with this | ameliabishop
    again with this | ameliabishop at |

    […] few days ago, some people who are way smarter than me blogged about this issue: Sue Brown. Jeff Erno. FE Feeley. Many great comments on those posts as […]

  24. Some links to egg you on | Becky Black

    […] Defending my Presence: Sue Brown Interesting post from Sue Brown and lots of interesting comments on the subject of women writing m/m romance. […]

  25. clarelondon
    clarelondon at |

    Thanks for this excellent and honest post, Sue. I agree with all that you say! And so many of the commenters, too. Please excuse my reply being posted at Jeff’s blog too, because it covers some of my thoughts on the whole topic.

    Personally it distresses me that labels are used to restrain, rather than inform. MM has always been used as label#1, as a genre in itself, with romance and SF and crime etc coming as #2. And it’s not there so I can “find” books I may like to read, but to “push” me into that box as a reader AND writer. I’d like to see that change.

    The other issue is that I, like many readers, read a lot of various stuff :), in all genres, with protagonists of all types, by all kinds of authors. I’m thrilled that MM romance is in there now with all the others as a choice. I think that’s one of the big strides that has been made in the marketing, albeit it continues to be addressed.

    But I think a situation authors come across relates to the *readers* – and I’m speaking as one myself. I see too many comments (not here today) that say “if only the readers would…”, “readers should realise …”, “readers don’t like/need/perceive.” But this isn’t really within our control. That said, we can bring pressure to bear on businesses who market books in a poor or misleading way, we can educate ourselves to craft better books, we can inform readers about their choices. This last point is a big thing for MM romance, judging by how many people I meet who don’t even know it’s there. But I feel that we can’t – or shouldn’t – legislate for what people basically want to read and/or how they may “see” the books on offer. Assuming they’ve been given the choice first, that is.

    Some genres will always be more popular / better crafted / less realistic / whatever. And some readers don’t recognise books as better/worse, or know why they do/don’t like them. I’m speaking from my POV here. There’s a huge number of other parameters come into play, from the profile of who are the main readers and purchasers of published books, what mood they’re in, how they’re offered books, when and how they’re reading, what percentage of book-buying is passing trade or well-considered choice etc etc.

    I could discuss happily for ages, and do, Sue can probably vouch for that*g*.

    Maybe I’m being naive, thinking that more books means more choice. A lot of readers maybe don’t choose to read out of their #1 fave type, or don’t have time or opportunity to look out new adventure.

    Many thanks anyway, for spurring some good and constructive discussion between authors and readers!

    Reply

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