Over the last few days two gay male authors, Jeff Erno and FE Feeley have written about their feelings about female authors in the genre. If you haven’t read the blogs, please do. They cover issues, good and bad, and got me thinking. This is my response but also draws on subjects I’ve been reading and thinking about for a while. I do not pretend to speak for any other author, female or otherwise. Just me. Bear with me for the first part.
I have been very vocal about my dislike of being told I should stay out of the genre because I’m not a gay man. I can’t deny it. I used to be apathetic to gender politics but being told by men that I shouldn’t do something because I’m a woman makes me see red. The publishing world is rife with dinosaurs telling women to butt out of their sandbox. A wonderful example here in the sci-fi genre. The one time I got trolled (by a man) was posting a link about women getting less reviews. And don’t get me started on the gaming world. How many examples do you need?
Why shouldn’t I write MM romance? Because I’m not gay and I don’t have a dick? Well, I’m not straight either, but have to admit I am not and never will be a gay man. I can drag up the old arguments of Stephen King not being a serial killer or JK Rowling not being a wizard yet they aren’t told not to write horrors or fantasy. I can use all those arguments but I have to acknowledge there is a difference.
On my dog walk this morning I tried to boil down my issues to a few points (before you fall asleep). These are my thoughts and my questions.
- Women have been good for the MM genre. Guys, sorry, you can’t deny it. It’s now a thriving genre. Victor J. Banis, who has been publishing for fifty years is open about acknowledging this fact. I wish I could find an interview from 2009 (I think) where he was saying the same thing.
- Women have appropriated the genre both as readers and writers. Definitely, I don’t think anyone would deny that, and that appropriation brings its own issues. Have we imposed our own view of what gay men are like? Are we treating gay men like ‘chicks with dicks’ or heterosexual men? Are we invading a much needed ‘safe space’?
- And the question of safe space for gay being eroded is one I see being bemoaned all the time in the gay media –women in gay clubs, families at Pride marches toning down the ‘openness’ (I can’t think of the right word). As society (slowly, so slowly) becomes more accepting is that eroding what it means to be gay? Do people need their spaces; the gentlemen clubs, the plethora of groups for mums, groups for people with the same interests? Humans congregate with people of like minds but that is not the same as a safe space, a place free of judgement, a chance to be who you are. Think about our conferences – no one judges us in that space for writing and reading about guys together.
- Is the MM community providing a ‘safe space’ and welcoming?
- Women are successful in the genre. I’m not going to deny that. Jeff Erno’s blog talks about that. Are we crowding out the gay male authors? You know, a couple of years ago I might have agreed with that statement, but I see more men coming in with more diverse books. It’s not 50/50 but male authors are increasing in numbers. What will it be like in five years time.
- Men don’t read romance. Bollocks! Some read sci-fi, thrillers, horror. Some read romance. Some don’t read at all. Gay guys aren’t an homogenous group. Not every bloke likes musical theatre and not every bloke will try one of our books.
- Our genre covers so many sub-genres. Why aren’t they reading one of our sci-fi books? Is it because of the dreaded ‘R’ word? Can we do something to change that?
I believe our genre is evolving all the time. In the four years I’ve been published it has changed enormously. I think our males readers and authors have had a lot to do with that change. To pick one out of my head, I can think of the articles from Damon Suede about gay sex and what authors were getting wrong. With more men attending our conferences we can see it is not all about the girls and we have a chance to learn from the horse’s mouth.
I love my genre and I intend to stay. But that doesn’t mean I can’t learn and be influenced. That is what makes a better writer. I am not going to roll over because I believe I have something to say. However I will shut up now. It’s over to you.
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Sue Brown is owned by her dogs and two children. When she isn’t following their orders, she can be found plotting at her laptop. In fact she hides so she can plot, and has become an expert at ignoring the orders.
Sue discovered M/M erotica at the time she woke up to find two men kissing on her favourite television series. The series was okay; the kissing was hot. She may be late to the party, but she’s made up for it since, writing fan fiction until she was brave enough to venture out into the world of original fiction.
Sue can be found at her website, http://www.suebrownstories.com/; her blog,http://suebrownsstories.blogspot.co.uk/; Twitter, https://twitter.com/suebrownstories; and her Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/suebrownstories.
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Dumped by his boyfriend, Frankie Mason goes out with the girls, gets totally trashed, and ends his night by falling in front of a taxi. He’s rescued by a man with beautiful green eyes who takes care of him until he’s put into an ambulance. Frankie curses himself as he realizes he doesn’t have the man’s phone number. Still in pain a few days later, he is dragged out to a club only to be saved by Green Eyes once more. This time, he isn’t letting the man go.
Unfortunately Frankie has to attend a team-building exercise, nicknamed Womb Weekend, organized by his company. Al is working so he doesn’t mind, until he discovers who the team leader is. Al has a lot of explaining to do!
Is this the one you mean?
http://wildeoats.wordpress.com/an-interview-with-victor-banis/
Not that one. I’ve linked that already in the blog. It was a longer interview somewhere and I came across it by chance. I really should start making a list of these blogs. Victor was really on form in that interview but I swear it was five years ago,
Good for you! I love reading m/m romances and most of my favourite 1 click authors are woman!
I love reading them too. I think my stories are divided between male and female authors. I’d have to check…
There are some very good points on both the blogs you quote and that you make yourself, Sue.
I don’t think I’m a typical M/M reader because I absolutely LOVE plot driven stories – Dorien Grey’s Dick Hardesty series, Elliott Mackle’s Captain Harding books – stories where stuff happens, with lots of action and bravery, and romance as just the cherry on the cake. To my mind there aren’t nearly enough of these about, or I’m just not very good at finding them. I hang around the genre sites – Sci Fi, Thrillers, Police Procedurals, Historicals – looking for recommendations and if I find something good I pass the news on. When I buy a book like that I don’t usually consider how the author would describe their sexuality, or gender for that matter. Maybe I ought to worry more about it, but I’ve just been grateful to find excellent reading matter.
As for my own work, I curl up in horror at the thought of causing deep offence to my readers. I’m just trying to write stuff to entertain – something in the style of Bernard Cornwell or Rafael Sabatini, with lots of action and a bit of a laugh but adding a little bit of manly fondling – and to express the knowledge that there have always been gay men but that their histories have been shamefully erased throughout the past. I hope that’s all right, but I have to accept that try as I might to a male reader my characters will probably never quite ring true.
I’ve just snorted into my coffee. ‘manly fondling’ awesome phrase.
Very well said, Sue.
Thank you, Amanda xx
As a reader, I like what I like and don’t care what gender is writing it. I read a great variety of M/M books and like sci-fi, romance, suspense, paranormal – you name it, I like it. My main criteria is the quality of the writing, characters and story. The sex is secondary and I get bored when it goes on and on and on and I don’t care for excessive mushiness.
My favorite authors are both men and women as long as they write what I like.
Yep, me too. I have favourite books and authors. If the plot is good and the characters interesting I am happy
Brilliantly put, my dear. I suppose I never thought about how my MM would be accepted by gay men when I began writing. I simply knew that I got it right, at least from Jake and Cade’s perspective and I didn’t care what anybody else thought. Now, 4 years after having been published, maybe I do care what people think but I still know that I get it right. If gay men like me, well, they LOVE me and my female readers just plain understand what I’m saying. I suppose that’s all I need to know. And you get it, Sue… you do
I didn’t think there was an issue until I realised some people (not all guys) objected to women writing in the genre. Of course, it’s not just our genre. The scifi link is a hoot for misogyny.
I’m in this genre because I love it. I feel this is my way of promoting equality. Our words have the potential to make fundamental changes in those that read them. I know I’ve impacted people positively with my words and it makes a difference. Each mommy (or daddy) who reads gay romance is more likely to be more accepting and they are raising more accepting people.
I’m only fascinated this is the difference that is dwelled on… There are lots of things that affect a writer: geography, socio-eco group, education, exposure to travel, world views, etc.
I also think who forget many of our readers have been dissociated with their sexuality (through trauma, society or being gender queer). Our words allow them to reconnect through gay characters because that’s who some of us relate to… let’s not begrudge someone how they express their own sexuality.
Hugs, Z.
I can’t express my reason for being here as succinctly as you. I just know that being has allowed me in some small way to advocate for LGBT rights because I have a forum I didn’t have before.
I hate sexism and have found female authors of the genre to write wonderful stories with excellent character development and a nice build up to the relationship. I own books by many male authors as well and can say that some are lacking the emotional depth that I find most enticing about any romance novel (gay or straight) but that does not mean they are bad books, just different and is to be expected in any genre. I like Sue’s analogy about JK Rowling and Stephen King, very apt since I am a gay man and could not write anything like what I read!
Jason, your comment reminds me I have tried to write in scifi/fantasy and crime, outside of the MM genre, and the results were disastrous. I didn’t get past the first chapter. I couldn’t put the emotion into the book to make it an entertaining read.
I think this is brilliantly written. It just makes me sort of sad that women have to defend their role in just about anything, whether its a job, equal pay, equal station, etc. It’s really interesting how Victorian we can be still even in this modern age and for women in this genre, you all have really shattered the glass ceiling and sort of changed the tone of the conversation being had. A good friend of mine and soon to be co-author Jamie Fessenden pointed out to me that the gay genre was incredibly depressing and the outlook pretty morbid in gay literature. Women pretty much, gave us a happy ending. That’s where it is. And it echoes in real life as well. Look how many female allies we have in the mundane world and in Hollywood or through music.
Sometimes its hard to see yourself because of what society says your are a certain thing or your in a certain space. Albert Einstein said that “Everyone is brilliant, but if you criticize a fish, on its inability to climb a tree, it will go its whole life thinking it’s stupid.” And while not exactly the same thing, I think the theme is the same. Gays were accused of so many things, being condemned for so much, that their own outlook sucked. I think it took women to elbow us in the ribs and tell us it was gonna be alright. And it is, it all works out in the end. Thanks Sue.
It’s thanks to you, definitely, for writing such an honest blog. You gave me so much to think about. Jamie’s comment is wonderful. Giving yourself permission to be happy – that’s a huge thing to do. Wow, that’s a blog, a book; damn that is amazing.
I will never be able to tell you what it is like to be a gay male or to have sex like one. I was asked once why I write in this area, I said simply that all the hero’s are me. I base them on things I like, bits of my personality are there. Can I tell you what it is like to have sex with a woman? Nope,but I can tell you what it is like to have sex with a man. More and more women are reading this type of genre. Yes women want romance. Now this is just my opinion but I think the women that read the genre tend to gravitate more to the women who write it. There are some male authors I read but I have to admit, I tend to prefer the female written novels because there is more romance in the book. I read one book by a male author and thought that is it, where is the detailed sex, where is the romance, where is the thing that connects me with the hero and this was from a very popular male author. I go to conferences to meet the authors but also to be around other women who like to read the same thing I do, If two men want make out in the corner, I don’t care. The men are there to read and be who they are with out judgement. Women should be given the same chance.
The guys I have read in the genre seem to write from grit to sex to fluff – just like the women do. It is the judgement issue you mentioned. Judge the books, not the gender.
Hear, hear Andrea. I feel the same way!
Just think how boring the world of fiction would be if authors had to stick to the gender, race, orientation, socio-economic status, etc. into which they were born.
Thanks, Sue, for the great post.
Thanks, Jen.
No one wants to hear about the middle-aged woman with two dogs and teenagers. I think that’s already been written.
I appreciate you putting your thoughts like this, Sue, it’s a good way to start a debate and allow people to air their grievances and move on. I used to believe that a good book was a good book, whoever wrote it. However, as I’ve gotten older I realise the reason why minority groups sometimes wish to appropriate certain ‘spaces’ or activities for themselves. Years ago I was involved with women’s rights and there was an extreme section of that political world who hated all men because of the oppression of women and spent most of their time belittling men and thinking up gender neutral terms. I could not be involved with that because ALL men were not the problem, societal attitudes were and that included women. Going to extremes is not the way to change attitudes and sadly changing terms isn’t either, acceptance is. There is a good argument as you, Sue, alluded to that you do not have to be what you are writing about but you do owe it to your subject to be accurate. There are fabulous male writers in this genre and fabulous women writers, and there are awful in both male and female, gay or straight, cis or trans etc. So whilst I understand groups wishing to appropriate safe spaces, you cannot rule the imagination and therefore writer’s subjects or genres for their novels.
Finally, I would say that a community of writers, reader, bloggers and reviewers like the one, which exists around m/m genre writing is a safe, and should be a tolerant place for all and should be celebrated.
Thank you, Beverley. You said it so much better than I could.
“So whilst I understand groups wishing to appropriate safe spaces, you cannot rule the imagination and therefore writer’s subjects or genres for their novels.”
Very good post. Couple thoughts… I wish this conversation would become less about gender and more about story structure, character design and genre. What I’ve noticed in my own reading is that the choices writers make which I, as a gay man, find inauthentic or even offensive are just as likely to come from men writing m/m romance as women. If gender is important at all, it is the gender of the readership.
But, is it even important to be authentic? One of the things I’ve been thinking a lot about is what I’d call Ally Literature. To clearly explain that think of the movie Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner? That’s not a black film. It’s a film made by white people to explain race to white people. I think the same is true of Brokeback Mountain – I know a lot of people view that as a gay film but it was made by straight people to explain homosexuality to straight people. (the gay audience was completely incidental) I enjoyed Brokeback Mountain but if I view it as a “gay” film I begin to ask questions like, “why couldn’t they be more empowered?” “why can’t there ever be a happy ending?” “Why do they act more like straight guys than gay guys?” Questions which a lot of people in the LGBT community asked when the film came out – because it was viewed as a gay film. If I view it as an Ally Film/Ally Literature then the decisions they made make perfect sense and my questions disappear.
I think at least some of m/m romance could come under the Ally umbrella and then, if characters are somewhat “heterosexualized” or inauthentic it really doesn’t matter as much. It’s really a conversation between straight people. (I’ve even seen comments from readers who say that reading m/m romance has changed their views politically.) I’m not saying all of m/m romance is ally literature, that’s really for individual writers (and readers, of course) to decide.
“Women have been good for the MM genre.” My understanding is that MM sprang from women writing slash fiction online in the 90s and then that blended with traditional romance tropes and structures. That is distinctly separate from gay fiction which existed for centuries before that. So, yes, women have been good for the MM genre – they invented it. Have they been good for gay fiction? That’s a much more difficult question. I consider myself a gay fiction writer publishing with m/m romance houses which leads me to surmise that m/m is providing opportunity to gay fiction writers. On the other hand, since romance is always the most popular genre wherever it appears the success of m/m makes it difficult to find gay fiction on Amazon – though I think that’s more sheer laziness on Amazon’s part than anything writers are doing. However, using m/m and gay fiction synonymously muddies the water and actually creates conflict.
Hi Marshall,
MM romance is definitely distinct from gay fiction, although I think (hope) the lines are blurring as the genre evolves. There are some authors who want to write more gay fiction than romance. Personally, I would like to see some of the success of MM transfer over to gay fiction. We don’t always to want to write a romance. Sometimes the plot doesn’t need the romance; it is plot driven, character driven, but not always romance driven.
Your initial comment “What I’ve noticed in my own reading is that the choices writers make which I, as a gay man, find inauthentic or even offensive are just as likely to come from men writing m/m romance as women.” Do you think that is a product of the genre?
Thanks for the response. I do see that there are many similarities between gay fiction and m/m and I hope that readers of each will step out (or continue to step out) of their comfort zones and try the other. I’m not sure I’d like to see the lines blurred exactly, but I would like to see more mutual support and respect from both communities.
I’ve come to think of the m/m readership as a big ball – on the outer edges you have readers who are adventurous and will try different books and at the center you have readers who are looking for books that provide a similar and reliable experience (this is probably true of het romance readers as well.) Yes, I do think my comment is a product of genre – and, of course, a writer’s understandable desire to be successful. There are specific rules, which, if you follow them, and write reasonably well, will get you to the top of the charts.
Rather than call anyone out I’ll use a personal experience as an example. One of my first books is a gay-for-you story (not that I knew what that term meant when I was writing it). One of the first sex scenes is M/F. Well, I got lots of comments about that. My book had “girl cooties” on it. (that’s one the comments). If I’d been writing to the market I wouldn’t have put that scene in there, though I think it makes for a better character arc to have it. I suppose if I’d been more savvy I’d have cut the scene to increase the marketability of the book… but never good at following rules.
I haven’t read you but I took a quick glance on Amazon and saw that you don’t always follow the “rules” about fidelity and got called out for it by a reader or two on FINAL ADMISSION. I’ve met a number of women writers who chafe at the “rules.”
I chafe at the rules, Marshall, and probably lose readers because of it. Infidelity, no HEA, social issues that make it non-fluffy (domestic abuse, religious bigotry, child abuse, teenage homelessness). I am one of those authors who’d like to write gay fiction and MM romance. However I know where my market is. I’m not going to stop writing these books but I have to temper them with the light-hearted ones as well. I’m fortunate Dreamspinner will let me write both.
Girls are a big no no. and that annoys me too – but that’s a rant for another day. Not all guys live in a girl-free world.
What a thoughtful and insightful post, Sue! (Isn’t dog-walking great for that sort of brainstorming?) You’ve put into words many of the nebulous ideas I’ve had about the ongoing debate about women in M/M romance–and I love hearing what other people think about it as well–I especially love the quote here from Jamie Fessenden’s quote on how women gave M/M romance its happy ending–that made me smile!
I can’t help but wonder if some of this ongoing debate doesn’t stem from the gender bias against women in general–certainly traditional M/F romances sell like hot cakes but ‘romance writer’ as applied to women authors is considered (in many circles) to be the epitome of trashy writing.
My own reasons for writing in this genre are complex and varied, but for the most part, they stem from a lifetime of feeling as though I had to hide who I was, an understanding of what it is like to be ruthlessly bullied, and a desire to express parts of my personality that don’t conform to society’s standards. To be honest, I probably could make more money writing in other genres. I write M/M romance because I *love* it. 😉
I have read so many comments recently from some men (not in our genre) that they would never read a book written by a woman. I think that gender bias is huge and romance is a double whammy. You can almost see their lip curl. It is ingrained, I’m afraid. Women write for women. Men write for men and women. The guys who judge the book, not the gender, know that attitude is nonsense.
I write hetero romance sometimes and I’m gay. I enjoy creating straight male and female characters. And I don’t want anyone putting me into a box because I’m gay. So I don’t think gender or sexuality should have anything to do with what writers write.
Of course it shouldn’t, Ryan. We’re authors. We write what’s in our head. *Who* writes it should make no difference at all.
Exactly.
Thank you….
Hugs, Z.
This topic again. I won’t go on a rant here, I’ve made my feelings about this immensely clear before. But Sue, you don’t need to defend yourself to anyone. That we, as a reading/writing community, allow this to continue without ramification is absurd. It’s time ot change that.
I was motivated not only by FE Feeley’s and Jeff Erno’s blogs (both supportive) but a lot of blogs recently by women in publishing facing similar issues. The ‘get the hell out of my sandbox’ is not limited to our genre. I know male authors face it too in traditionally women’s genres so I’m not saying it’s one-sided.
wow, this topic always brings such great response. For me, good writing and a well written story is what makes a book good. Sex of the author does not matter, because, and I may be thought of as crazy for voicing this, but to me there is no such thing as straight or gay. Sexuality is a long broad spectrum with many nuances within it.
You can see it in how each of us has an individual style or way we go about attracting another’s sexual interest. Sure their are society guidelines for how to do this, but when you look deeper each of individual have sexual things that we will do and things that we won’t.
There are men that I’m attracted to and men that I would never be attracted to. There have been women that I have been attracted to and the sex was great and women that I can’t stand. Do I prefer men? Yes, because my taste is closer to that end of the sexual spectrum.
When I look at my friends, men that prefer women, women that prefer women, girls who look like boys, boys who look like girls, girls that wish they were men, men that wish they were women and everything inbetween, I have learned sexuality is much broader than straight and gay… to me sexuality is the rainbow.
So no matter your sex, just keep writing good stories, because there is an audience for every one.
“For me, good writing and a well written story is what makes a book good.” AMEN!!
I just want to remind folks there’s a Yaoi-style some authors choose to write in. Yaoi was born from Japanese artists drawing beautiful males in stories for other women. Our cover art is usually (but not always) hand drawn and look like a manga letting the reader know the story is pure fantasy. It is usually not trying to be a contemporary gay romance. It’s usually a bit over-the-top.
I had a number of discussions at the last GRL on fiction vs romance. Each have different ‘rules’/’guidelines’. Writers can break these rules or try to blur the lines and readers will either like it or not. I can only speak for myself if I’m picking up a romance I resent a writer trying to ‘educate’ me on the joys of fiction by labeling a work of fiction as a ‘romance’… because if I wanted a ‘fiction’ novel I would have picked one up. (This is different then stretching boundaries).
I’m going to try to bury my sadness over how many women writers feel they need to ‘defend’ their presence in this genre and try to move on. One of the reasons I LOVE this community is our inclusiveness…
Hugs, Z.
I do think there is room to be fiction and romance. I have read enough romances in other genre stories to know one can be both. Is that blurring the boundaries or breaking the rules?
I agree with you completely Sue. I’m referring to when you’re at a restaurant: you order steak but the waiter brings you broiled salmon cause it’s better for you. That’s probably correct however, I doubt many of us would be happy with the switch. As long as readers know: via blurb, author history, correct genre labeling of the book, so they are clear as to what they are getting. I know I would be horrified if someone wanted a serious fiction and picked up Club Zombie (but it would confuse the hell out of me as well because the blurb is clear, the cover is clear and my history of giving happy fluffy bunnies is established).
I applaud writers and readers taking the risks (and at times as a reader I take a leap of faith with an author). But I just don’t want to be told (and I WAS) that romance readers “needed to be educated on a more intellectual genre”. I was insulted and angry by that statement. Romance readers flock to its happily ever afters for various reasons and that doesn’t make them more or less than the fiction readers who go after that genre for their reading satisfaction. When we try to cram one into the other it doesn’t always work. Not to say there isn’t cross overs because there definitely is… but proper identification allows people choice.
Hugs, Z.
“romance readers “needed to be educated on a more intellectual genre”” Good grief. I hope you removed the stick up their arse.
I don’t agree with the tendency to boil the conversation down to women vs. men in the genre. I think that conversation can and does get sexist very quickly.
I will say that I’m concerned when I see people stating that how LGBTQ people are represented in romance doesn’t matter because it’s just a fantasy. I think at this point in time there are so few representations of GLBTQ people that every one of them does matter and is important. On top of that I think the tendency to throw up our hands and say “it’s just a fantasy for women who want their HEA. It’s not political or it doesn’t represent real gay men” is a way of avoiding scrutinizing our work.
I do think straight and cisgender writers who write GLBTQ characters have to do more work to hold themselves accountable in the same way that I, as a white writer, need to do more work when I write about people of color. I would like to see more acknowledgment of that and more work done around it. Checking your privilege is hard, not falling into stereotypes we were all raised with is hard, not making a total racist asshole of myself without even realizing I’m doing it is hard. These are things I struggle with every day as a writer and a human being. I’m sure most other writers do as well but that conversation doesn’t happen as much as it should. If and when issues of how straight writers portray gay characters come up they should be teaching/learning moments not lets point fingers at each other moments. I think we are all falling down on this front.
“Is the MM community providing a ‘safe space’ and welcoming?”
I have huge concerns on this front from a selfish personal reason. I write m/m romance among other kinds of romance. I am also a queer, trans person with disabilities. There are definitely part of the m/m romance community where I have felt widely supported and nurtured. I’ve met great allies, great friends, and great fellow queers through writing in this genre.
Then there are huge swaths of the genre I feel completely aliened from. Just within the last few weeks a very popular m/m author made a number of ablest comments and ablest jokes that her fans and some other authors joined in on. It upset me and when she was asked to stop the whole thing escalated getting more and more offensive until I was practically in tears. It might have just been fun and game for her and her fans but its part of my identity and my life, something I deal with every single day.
It’s also been really disheartening to see so many people speak out against the inclusion of trans men as characters into m/m romance. Many readers frame this as a personal preference but it’s hard to have people tell you that they don’t want to read books about people like you or while a cisgender man might be sexy a trans man is just not their taste. In a world where trans people are already incredibly marginalized it feels like being marginalized even further.
I also present myself and identify as fairly effeminately masculine. I have to say I don’t love it when effeminate gay character get called unrealistic, or readers say they prefer ‘real men’, or call these men ‘bitches’ in a deeply derogatory way. I know other effeminate men in the genre have spoken about this issue before.
I’m not going to speak to race because i have no personal experience there but I would be interested to hear that the experience of readers or writers of color have been.
I think all this is particularly a problem because the m/m romance genre holds itself up as open, welcoming and accepting of all and prides itself in this. Yet we’re not talking about the ways in which this might not be true.
Over all there is questions we need to be asking and ways we need to be growing and changing. This whole back and forth over women in the genre isn’t helping us move forward any.
Thank you for taking this discussion further, particularly the question of the safe space. If we cannot be opening and welcoming (authors and readers) then we are failing our community. We have no excuses. None. And ‘jokes’ that don’t stop is more than offensive. A couple of years ago at GRL I had a long chat with Wave from jessewave who complained about the lack of diversity in the genre; not just of colour but of disabilities. I make a point of reading books where the guys have some form of disability, particularly when there is no effort made to pretty them up. I have to admit I haven’t seen a discussion against trans men but I know from experience of what I write there are people who like diversity and those that are very predictable. I hold my hands up and say I’ve included a trans character and a black character as main heroes but only once for both.
This really needs a further discussion, particularly with authors who will write about characters who aren’t always white, able-bodied, cis.
I posted Liam Livings’ discussion about effeminate men. I am fed up of reading about ‘weak’ effeminate men who need the strong alpha male. That purely is a personal peeve.
Portraying gay men’s sexuality can be a real catch-22. If you think of us as basically the same as straight guys except for who we have sex with you’re going to get it wrong. If you think of us as women with penises you’re going to get it wrong.
“I am fed up reading about ‘weak’ effeminate men who need the strong alpha male.” My guess would be that you’re fed up with that trope because it doesn’t ring true. Effeminate men are sometimes, even often, very dominant with strong type A personalities.
Every gay man has a relationship with masculinity – both stereotypical masculinity and true masculinity – that relationship can change given the situation, it can change because of personal evolution and can ebb and flow throughout a life.
Great post E.E., by the way.
“Portraying gay men’s sexuality can be a real catch-22. If you think of us as basically the same as straight guys except for who we have sex with you’re going to get it wrong. If you think of us as women with penises you’re going to get it wrong.”
Do we (as a genre) get it that wrong?
There was a huge thing about ‘chick with dicks’ and Jeff Erno mentioned that we had veered the other way; making our guys too straight.
Again, purely a personal preference, but the last thing I want to be writing about is straight guys. Jeez, I’d be writing Harlequin if I wanted to write about straight guys.
“Do we (as a genre) get it wrong?”
Wow, that’s an interesting question. I’ve been commenting on Jeff’s blog as well which is why I was thinking about that. The idea that gay men and straight men are essentially the same came up over there. To be honest (and fair) I don’t feel widely read enough in m/m to answer that.
There are a lot of questions I would answer based on my reading and a survey of blurbs. For instance, murderous ex-boyfriends appear more often in m/m romance than they do in real life. In fact, I mentioned to a straight friend that my former roommate is dating a guy who lives with his ex. My straight friend said, ‘Heterosexuals don’t do that.’ In reality we’re probably less likely to have murderous ex’s than a straight person. Though m/m can make it seem more likely.
Now, have I read books that got it wrong. Yes. But, I’ve also read books that got it right. So, I can’t really give a fair answer. Other than to say in my experience the results are mixed.
for as much as a love it m/m romance is a genre dominated by images white, able bodied, cisgender, middle class, good looking young men. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t authors writing other kinds of characters but for every one differently abled character, character of color, bisexual man, trans man, or chubby hairy guy there are dozens and dozens of stories about able bodied, cisgender dudes who conform to societies views of attractiveness. I’m personally sick of it and I also think it is also problematic that it is so overwhelming the majority.
I would love to see more books with differently abled main characters were their differently abled status wasn’t portrayed as a weakness. It’s actually a goal of mine to write more differently abled characters in the next few years.
I unfortunately have been kind of in the middle of a lot of the debates around trans characters in the genre. I write predominantly trans characters right now. I remember especially last summer there was a big push back from a lot of readers who felt like transmen didn’t belong in m/m romance. There was a lot of talk that trans* romance should be it’s own genre and m/m romance should be just about cisgender gay men. When my first story with a trans* male character came out last year, even though I and my publisher were very careful to mark it as containing trans* content the first review I got was from a reader who thought it was going to be cisgender m/m and freaked out when that wasn’t the case. I think though the next few years will definitely see that change.
I think some that gay romance does well is that it presents people in a “these people exist, have relationships, and can be happy” light. It’s something I’ve seen people comment on when the “why should women be writing/reading this stuff” – it can make a difference to some people’s opinions.
If the genre decides to pride itself on that, then I don’t see why the people reading it should seek to exclude trans* characters. If the fantasy has good, real world implications, and you think that’s a good thing, that’s it’s a bit… not very nice to exclude a whole bunch of people from the effect.
Fantasy is not just fantasy – it shows that people who are a, b or c can live out a fantasy, can have their happy endings, can have good, fulfilling lives, can have their romances. If people don’t want to read on certain types of characters, that’s fine – but I see no reason to exclude those characters from a genre as if they can’t achieve the same things.
[…] to die. Today I read a wonderfully thoughtful post on Sid Love’s blog by Sue Brown called Defending My Presence. You should check it […]
Sue, thank you for sharing the link of my original blog post. I’d like to state very clearly that I was not suggesting that female authors do not belong in the m/m romance genre. Nor do I think you or any person should have to defend their presence. One need only take a glance at my Good Reads bookshelf to discover that I read and review as many female authors as male. I recommend as many books written by female authors as male. And when I read a book, I don’t judge it based on the gender of the author. And THAT was the point of my original post, “Does Gender Matter?”
But I do remember a few years back reading an article on one of the gay literary sites (I want to say it was Lambda Literary, but I’m not sure). Anyway, the author of the article categorically dismissed m/m romance, suggesting the entire genre was appropriation of the gay male culture by women. That was the very first time I’d heard that argument, but since then I’ve heard other people, both gay and straight, say the same thing. Obviously, I don’t feel that way myself, but I’m aware that there are many gay men who do feel insulted that women have “taken over” the gay publishing industry.
Is it wrong to bring this topic up? Isn’t it valid to discuss an opinion that is, if not prevalent, at least regularly-occurring, in the gay community?
Of course I do not feel that the amazing and talented female authors I’ve come to know and love do not deserve all of the success that they’ve earned. Eden Winters, RJ Scott, Amy Lane, Allison Cassatta, Madison Parker, Sara Alva…the list could go on for pages…these are some of my absolute favorite writers. And without female authors and readers, there would be no m/m romance. The genre itself, I believe, is responsible for saving gay literature from certain death.
But there is a perception that women write better romance than men do. I could provide a ton of anecdotal evidence of this–comments in reviews, from Good Reads, etc. To me, this is just as unfair to gay male authors as the sexist assumption that men are better at managing businesses or governing countries. And it’s that attitude that really frustrates me. When someone says a gay man does not know how to write a character-driven story because they only write “plot driven” books, I want to scream.
My original point was that gender does not matter, or at least it shouldn’t. But tell that to the people who seem to gravitate toward only reading books written by one gender.
Hi Jeff,
I think your post and FE Feeley’s raised lots of valid questions, and those discussions have been continued here in the comments and in extensive discussions on Facebook and Twitter. I apologise if it came across that I was attacking your post because I wasn’t. In fact, you’ve extended my thoughts on the subject, especially on appropriation of the genre. The question of diversity (including trans and disabled) characters is being carried on elsewhere.
I am as frustrated as you by the desire to read one gender. I have come across this in more than one genre. I do not, and never will, understand the need to classify male and female written stories – which is why I get so frustrated by gender classification. Character driven, plot-driven, it’s a style of the author, not the genitals.
I think, from watching the genre, that some people will never see past the *low* status of romance. I see so many people curl their lip until I discuss some of the issues I cover in my books.
So, to recap, I agree with you.
Stupid question – what exactly constitutes romance. Every book I’ve read has a relationship somewhere in it but many of them address contemporary issues, are suspense, sci-fi, paranormal, historical, etc. However, it seems like, if they’re M/M, they’re all classified as romance, particularly by some publishers and large online book sellers.
From a literary standpoint, a romance is something very different than what the publishing industry labels as a romance for marketing purposes. Northrop Frye proposed a theory of literary criticism in which he believed all stories could be placed in one of four categories or mythos: romance, comedy, tragedy, and irony. This definition of romance is a story that includes a hero who faces a quest and must resolve a conflict. It always ends in triumph, where good overcomes evil. Star Wars is a perfect example of this type of romance.
The “romance” label now used in the publishing industry is a love story which follows a formula where the protagonist falls in love, faces and overcomes obstacles, achieves resolution, and lives happily ever after. Cinderella is an example of this type of romance.
Bittersweet romances are love stories that do not necessarily have a happy ending.
Most readers don’t care about these definitions and may not even be aware of the formula that is being followed. But if they’re a fan of formulaic romance and the author veers from this formula, that reader will likely notice and in most cases will not like it. They don’t want to be denied their conflict and resolution or their HEA. And they definitely want the story to include a couple falling in love.
Purely from a personal observation, male readers have loved my books that bucked the rules (Nothing Ever Happens and The Night Porter).
Sue, here’s a blog I wrote about bucking the rules: http://www.jefferno.com/jeffs_blog/follow-the-rules-
Your list of dos and don’ts in MM romance is very accurate, Jeff, and it almost brings tears to my eyes that they are applied so stringently to any book that features a same sex relationship. Even if the book is written as a romance in the old sense – a bildungsroman where the hero grows through experience and so learns something about the world and himself – these rules are expected to apply. Especially Rule Nine about smut. In fact I think that could be tweaked a little to read “Don’t insult the mm romance audience by trying to sell them touching love stories without it, lots of it, in glorious close up detail.”
Do you think there will ever be an alternative label to M/M? That is associated so closely to erotic romance that readers are bound to be disappointed if they buy a book and it doesn’t conform to what they expect.
As a gay man, I love to read m/m romance and I don’t care who writes it as long as it is well written. I love reading Amy Lane as much as Josh Lanyon. I’ve read books by both genders that I felt were unrealistic and just plain crappy. As for women supposedly not being able to write good m/m sex scenes, just check out Ella Frank’s Try. This was here first m/m romance after writing many m/f romances and I have to say that the sex scenes in this book were so scorching & spot on that I thought my iPad was going to melt! Good writing and great imagination are the keys to a successful novel.
“Good writing and great imagination are the keys to a successful novel.”
Amen, Rocky. As it has been since the first book was written.
[…] few days ago, some people who are way smarter than me blogged about this issue: Sue Brown. Jeff Erno. FE Feeley. Many great comments on those posts as […]
[…] Defending my Presence: Sue Brown Interesting post from Sue Brown and lots of interesting comments on the subject of women writing m/m romance. […]
Thanks for this excellent and honest post, Sue. I agree with all that you say! And so many of the commenters, too. Please excuse my reply being posted at Jeff’s blog too, because it covers some of my thoughts on the whole topic.
Personally it distresses me that labels are used to restrain, rather than inform. MM has always been used as label#1, as a genre in itself, with romance and SF and crime etc coming as #2. And it’s not there so I can “find” books I may like to read, but to “push” me into that box as a reader AND writer. I’d like to see that change.
The other issue is that I, like many readers, read a lot of various stuff :), in all genres, with protagonists of all types, by all kinds of authors. I’m thrilled that MM romance is in there now with all the others as a choice. I think that’s one of the big strides that has been made in the marketing, albeit it continues to be addressed.
But I think a situation authors come across relates to the *readers* – and I’m speaking as one myself. I see too many comments (not here today) that say “if only the readers would…”, “readers should realise …”, “readers don’t like/need/perceive.” But this isn’t really within our control. That said, we can bring pressure to bear on businesses who market books in a poor or misleading way, we can educate ourselves to craft better books, we can inform readers about their choices. This last point is a big thing for MM romance, judging by how many people I meet who don’t even know it’s there. But I feel that we can’t – or shouldn’t – legislate for what people basically want to read and/or how they may “see” the books on offer. Assuming they’ve been given the choice first, that is.
Some genres will always be more popular / better crafted / less realistic / whatever. And some readers don’t recognise books as better/worse, or know why they do/don’t like them. I’m speaking from my POV here. There’s a huge number of other parameters come into play, from the profile of who are the main readers and purchasers of published books, what mood they’re in, how they’re offered books, when and how they’re reading, what percentage of book-buying is passing trade or well-considered choice etc etc.
I could discuss happily for ages, and do, Sue can probably vouch for that*g*.
Maybe I’m being naive, thinking that more books means more choice. A lot of readers maybe don’t choose to read out of their #1 fave type, or don’t have time or opportunity to look out new adventure.
Many thanks anyway, for spurring some good and constructive discussion between authors and readers!